Lloyd's Thoughts and Johnny's Response

Greetings

Hebrew 4:2 says that the OT saints had the same gospel that we NT sinners have believed.

Rom 1:1-2 says that the OT prophets preached this promise.

Gal 3:8 says that the gospel was preached to Abraham.

Is there more than one gospel? I say no!

The characteristics of the OT gospel are: (1) it is by faith and (2) it is strictly without baptism.

Water baptism is the equivalent of the OT circumcision.

Note that the OT circumcision was not part of the gospel.

Abraham was saved BEFORE he was circumcised (Gen 15:6; Rom 4).

Thus, water baptism is a man-made addition to the gospel. This is affirmed by Paul's denial of water baptism as part of the gospel that he was entrusted (1 Corinthians 1:14).

Lloyd

Johnny:

Testament:

1. Something that serves as tangible proof or evidence.


2. A covenant between God and humans.

Now, why a New Testament when we already have an Old one? The same Gospel was already preached? There has to be something new, right? Well, the faith is the same and that I am in agreement. And with that faith, comes action, Christ died for our sins, in the old, when sin came, there was sacrifice, thus people had to go and kill some and animals and burn them on an alter. Christ is the ultimate sacrifice. In place of that, we are baptized.

1st Peter 3:8-22
Finally, all of you, live in harmony with one another; be sympathetic, love as brothers, be compassionate and humble. Do not repay evil with evil or insult with insult, but with blessing, because to this you were called so that you may inherit a blessing. For, “Whoever would love life and see good days must keep his tongue from evil and his lips from deceitful speech. He must turn from evil and do good; he must seek peace and pursue it. For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous and his ears are attentive to their prayer, but the face of the Lord is against those who do evil.”

Who is going to harm you if you are eager to do good? But even if you should suffer for what is right, you are blessed. “Do not fear what they fear; do not be frightened.” But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander. It is better, if it is God’s will, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil. For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also - not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at God's right hand - with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.

Lloyd, you have talked so much about context in many of your posts… but you have taken Paul’s scripture of baptism out of context. Consider the surrounding scriptures.

1st Corinthians 1:10-17
I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought. My brothers, some from Chloe's household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. What I mean is this: One of you says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Cephas”; still another, “I follow Christ.”

Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into the name of Paul? I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, so no one can say that you were baptized into my name. (Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don't remember if I baptized anyone else.) For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel - not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

The scripture in question “I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius,” is clearly out of context. With the surrounding scriptures in place, it is talking about unity and not baptism. Baptism still saves. Faith leads to baptism, which leads to grace and the Holy Spirit. This whole scripture in 1st Corinthians is centered around unity, mostly around there being divisions in the church. People where following those who baptized them. For example, let’s say, you baptized a bunch of people Lloyd. They think you are a great guy, and you know, you really are. I think you are. And along comes “Joe Bob” and he baptizes a bunch of people. And those people think he hangs the moon. And all of a sudden, there starts to be a division amongst the people you baptize and “Joe Bob’s” group. And it shouldn’t be that way. This scripture simple refers to that. It doesn’t refer to baptism being wrong in the slightest. Look it back and let me know what you think… I hope this helps.

Romans 1:1-2
Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God - the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures…

Hebrews 4:1-2
Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it. For we also have had the gospel preached to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because those who heard did not combine it with faith.

Galatians 3:6-9
Consider Abraham: “He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham. The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.” So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

Genesis 17:1-27
When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to him and said, “I am God Almighty; walk before me and be blameless. I will confirm my covenant between me and you and will greatly increase your numbers.”

Abram fell facedown, and God said to him, “As for me, this is my covenant with you: You will be the father of many nations. No longer will you be called Abram; your name will be Abraham, for I have made you a father of many nations. I will make you very fruitful; I will make nations of you, and kings will come from you. I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you. The whole land of Canaan, where you are now an alien, I will give as an everlasting possession to you and your descendants after you; and I will be their God.”

Then God said to Abraham, “As for you, you must keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you for the generations to come. This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised. You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you. For the generations to come every male among you who is eight days old must be circumcised, including those born in your household or bought with money from a foreigner - those who are not your offspring. Whether born in your household or bought with your money, they must be circumcised. My covenant in your flesh is to be an everlasting covenant. Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.”

God also said to Abraham, “As for Sarai your wife, you are no longer to call her Sarai; her name will be Sarah. I will bless her and will surely give you a son by her. I will bless her so that she will be the mother of nations; kings of peoples will come from her.”

Abraham fell facedown; he laughed and said to himself, “Will a son be born to a man a hundred years old? Will Sarah bear a child at the age of ninety?” And Abraham said to God, “If only Ishmael might live under your blessing!”

Then God said, “Yes, but your wife Sarah will bear you a son, and you will call him Isaac. I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him. And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation. But my covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you by this time next year.” When he had finished speaking with Abraham, God went up from him.

On that very day Abraham took his son Ishmael and all those born in his household or bought with his money, every male in his household, and circumcised them, as God told him. Abraham was ninety-nine years old when he was circumcised, and his son Ishmael was thirteen; Abraham and his son Ishmael were both circumcised on that same day. And every male in Abraham's household, including those born in his household or bought from a foreigner, was circumcised with him.

Genesis 15:6 righteousness:
tsedâqâh
tsed-aw-kaw'
From H6663; rightness (abstractly), subjectively (rectitude), objectively (justice), morally (virtue) or figuratively (prosperity): - justice, moderately, right (-eous) (act, -ly, -ness).

Somewhere along the way, righteousness is confused with being saved. I don’t know is that is the case… the covenant wasn’t even made until Genesis 17. I can’t say. I fireman, who is a pagan, can save a child from a burning building, doing something right, and be credit as doing something right, which by definition would be doing something tsedâqâh or righteous, but does that save him? The debate really could go on, but the fact of the matter is, the covenant was made in Genesis 17 and Abram, whose named immediately was changed to Abraham, was said to “on that very day” to have been circumcised, along with all the males. Again, Lloyd, I have looked at in context. Look back at it and let me know what you think… again, I hope this helps.